Thursday, November 25, 2010

Episode 38 Vegan Dot Com

Episode 38 Vegan Dot Com

Vegans promoting nonVeganism as ethical, A birthday song for William Paul, and Return To Oz

Subscribe in iTunes or direct download this episode here

Hello and welcome to another episode of Coexisting With Nonhuman Animals. 

I'm recording this on William Pauls birthday, I'd like to make a toast.  William, you're always out there, on the streets of Auckland, homeless…, just kidding, out tabling on the streets of Auckland, and you never ask for any credit.  On this special day, when we are reminded of how you've become one year closer to death, may we rise to sing…

Happy birt….come on everyone, sing along with old crazy Jordan…

Yeah thats right, I was down with synthetic voices BEFORE it was cool.

This episode is not just an excuse to sing along with a Robo Choir, I'd like to mention my recent blog post, an Open Letter to Erik Marcus.

In the post, I asked Erik, of Vegan Dot Com if he would please stop promoting different kinds of Welfare Reforms as a way forward, of asking quote ".. for vegans to team up with conscientious omnivores to push an issue".

I think we should instead avoiding funding Think Tanks to come up with new variations of "nonVegan", of ways to sexy it up, I think "non Vegan" is just fine.  Otherwise we get into some kind of crazy half page description, "well I'm a meat eater, leather wearer, toast smeared with egger, fur is murder-rer, milk is for adult men-tor…"

Vegan and NonVegan suit me just fine, I think neither is a loaded term.

My letter was linked to by Gary Francione, it was nuts, from my usual couple people a day who stop by my blog,it was I'd picked up a Quad Damage,, the number of visitors rocket-jumped their way up into BFG territory.

For those who didn't grow up playing Quake III Arena, a lot more people visited, ok?

Before I read the post, I'd like to mention a couple of examples of misguided activism.

"Isn't man an amazing animal?
He kills wildlife - birds, kangaroos, deer, all kinds of cats, coyotes, beavers, groundhogs, mice, foxes and dingoes - by the million in order to protect his domestic animals and their feed.
Then he kills domestic animals by the billion and eats them. This in turn kills man by the millions, because eating all those animals leads to degenerative - and fatal - health conditions like heart disease, kidney disease, and cancer. So then man tortures and kills millions more animals to look for cures for these diseases.
Elsewhere, millions of other human beings are being killed by hunger and malnutrition because food they could eat is being used to fatten domestic animals. Meanwhile, some people are dying of sad laughter at the absurdity of man, who kills so easily and so violently, and once a year, sends out cards praying for Peace on Earth."

So begins the forward to the oddly named "Old MacDonald's Factory Farm: The Myth of the Traditional Farm and the Shocking Truth About Animal Suffering in Today's Agribusiness
"  Oooh, I see the cheapest used copies start from an American dollar, I think thats about 4000 New Zealand Pesos, plus halfway around the world postage.

So the theme is about how evil, how miserable, how inhumane, how Hitler-esque quote "Factory Farming" is.  No mentions of Veganism as a moral baseline there.  With that opening, about all the animals killed,  "…he kills domestic animals by the billion and eats them. This in turn kills man by the millions…", I suppose that could be overlooked, as long as they are not from first name Old last name MacDonald and his factory farm, right?

From a review of the book:

"He discusses genetic engineering, environmental effects, transportation of live animals and the ethics of factory farming. While his book makes a strong case for vegetarianism, Coats also advises consumers how to look for humanely raised meat products. This is not for readers with queasy stomachs."

I've been listening to more Audiobooks while I work, A Short History of Nearly Everything by Bill Bryson mentions Lead.

If we fight certain uses, and certain products, then we waste a hell of a lot of time compared to just asking our Communist tyrant Dictator to say, "lead is bad, don't use it in our stuff, ok?"  I know, I know, it gets in the way of the Free market, perhaps kids don't need ALLLLLL their brain cells, and hey, you get what you pay for, right? 

By focusing on the problem, of getting rid of lead outright, results are made.  There are no "free range lead", "humanely killed lead", "Temple Grandin smelted Lead" or "Lead free Wednesdays" confusing people.  We speak out against lead plainly.  Sure, some countries are slower than others, having more lobbyists and the like, we certainly shouldn't be working WITH the lobbyists on making their lead production "more efficient"! 

And also notice the terms used, ok, so market research leads us to understands consumers don't like the word "lead" right, they don't like seeing it in their childs milk formula, or that its the main metal in Babies First Fully Automatic Rifle, so what happens?  The companies responsible cook up a new, friendlier sounding name….a bit like "conscientious omnivore", meaning someone who eats other animals who we kill for their flesh, not to mention the bodily secretions we take from them. 

In my own country, we recently made a big deal about lead in bullets, which got hunters all angry, "lardy greenies taking away our lead bullets, the whole point is that they KILL THINGS…the new ones arnt as good….just like cds compared to vinyl….and what the hell is an ipod???"  I think those people have spent too long handling lead over the years.

    ⁃    Or what about the dumping of waste,

I was having my usual chuckle, "ha, those crazy Americans, have fun with Palin 2012"….when…NEW ZEALAND?!?!  TOXIC WASTE DUMPERS?!?!?  What the…we're a Nuclear Free country though?  I mean, we have smoke alarms with America-ium inside…..but but but…..

Nuclear Waste huh, well, that may explain this next clip:

The books showing its age there, being from way back in 2003, we've watched live Giant Squid by now.

Ohhhhh yeaaaaaaah, I forgot about those, Giant, and the even larger Colossal Squid, huh, duuuuuh.  I'd been telling my Swedish friend it was cool to come here, everyones friendly to others in New Zealand, unless you're Australian, or an Aucklander visiting the South Island, ….that we had no dangerous animals, that before The White Man rolled into town a couple hundred years ago, there were basically no mammals, the birds didn't even bother flying, many are flightless, we had no dangerous animals, no snakes, bears, hornets, big feet….that as a people, we weren't armed to the teeth… that the worst animals here were like, huh…. ONE type of spider, the White Tail, that jumped ship from Australia, but they're only in that god forsaken North Island, apart from them, well, the worst monsters are Cats and Rats….

And no, thats not like when Mr Rooster brings the Hens Falafel he's found….

No, somehow, I overlooked Giant and Colossal Squid, all the tentacles that come up out of the drain while you brush your teeth, and all those ships that get pulled under each week. 

We Humans are still the most dangerous animals here of course.


"Fonterra says it is looking at alternatives to dumping waste into a Tararua river following a backlash from the community.
The dairy cooperative dumps two million litres a day of milk powder waste from its Pahiatua….wish William had a podcast of his own to cover these North Island names…. Dairy Factory into the Mangatainoka River, a tributary of the contaminated Manawatu River.
It has been seeking resource consents to continue doing so for 22 years, shifting its dumping site to the Mangatainako River in five years' time.

Imagine some guy with a standard 10 litter plastic bucket of quote "milk powder waste", in plain english, crap from the Dairy industry, thrown by the bucketfull into this river.  We dump all sorts into rivers here, the North Island in particular has many rivers unfit for swimming in, with strange algae blooms, oh, and the Giant Squid.  A local slaughterhouse here has the standard pipes going out to a river, you can see waste water, and who knows whats in that, blood, guts, cleaning products, apparently a lot of fecal matter, you know, shit, and this is just down from a natural waterfall, the Mataura Falls, I've included a lot of AMAZING photos in my sources, which you'll be able to see on the blog post for this, being episode 38, you'll find it at , or at Coexisting With Nonhuman Animals. anyway. 

200,000 10 litre buckets worth of crap each and every day, and for AT LEAST another 22 years…., imagine watching someone throw bucket after bucket of garbage into the river, and not saying anything.  If we saw someone throwing rocks at a Duck in the river, we'd stop them, and then go on home to eat a killed Chicken's flesh, if we saw someone dumping their car ashtray into a river, we'd stop them, we see pipes from a factory, putting goods together, or ripping animals apart, and we look the other way, its just normal.

I think its just as damaging to other animals when Animal Advocates promote NonVeganism.  I'll read my blog post.

An Open Letter to Erik Marcus

(because I'm just *CERTAIN* you're one of my five listeners!)

Dear Erik,

When I had first become Vegan, I listened to your debate with Professor Gary Francione, perhaps the finest 32kbps mono MP3 file I've ever heard.  You are indeed a master of lossy audio compression, my own episodes waste more drive space, while offering a fraction of the actual content, kudos to you and Francione.

I quickly realised where I stood on the issues discussed, larger cages for Hens, of awarding "feel good terms" to those who buy animal flesh and bodily secretions, to learning how "Happy Meat" animal products can be compared to a "Connecticut minimum security prison".  Do you not find it odd that 56 Billion totally innocent land animals get to ride ol' Sparky each year?  Remind me not to jaywalk in Connecticut!

Erik, one of your most recent blog posts offended me:

"Between the resultant higher feed grain costs and the end of direct production subsidies for meat and dairy products, animal agriculture as we know it would cease to exist. That this sort of move is even on the table for public discussion shows that we’ve reached a pivotal moment, and that an unprecedented opportunity has fallen into our laps.
If there’s ever been a time for vegans to team up with conscientious omnivores to push an issue, this is it."

No, "This Is It" featured a NON MOONWALKING MJ, I mean, what kind of rip off is that?  Its a little like a "Vegan dot com" without the Vegan.

I can assure you, as a New Zealander, living in a country without subsidised animal agriculture, this will do nothing to help the animals.  We are sadly quite efficient at *exporting* animal flesh and their bodily secretions, our "free market" does not involve "an invisible hand" "cooking the books", that hand's too busy cooking the animals I love and care for.

"Output and net incomes for the New Zealand dairy industry are higher now than before subsidies ended--and the cost of milk production is among the lowest in the world."

Your article was forwarded online among many non-vegans, including New York Times Food Journalist Mark Bittman

The term you used, "conscientious omnivores", albeit shortened above for a Tweet, has become a buzzword, a way to feel good about ourselves.   Rather than saying "I like to eat dead animals!  I find their bodily secretions rather yummy!", hip non-vegans may now instead boast "oh, I'm a *conscientious omnivore* you know, I onnnnnnnnnly eat *humanely* slaughtered animals you know, because I care for them soooo know..."  And where are they getting this "Temple Grandin=Animal Rights activist" thumbs up from?  Vegan dot com.

Your debate with Professor Francione had a mention of how Welfare promotion could cause his rescued dogs to bark.  I end this open letter with mention of how each time a curious non-vegan discovers "Vegan dot com", and its backing of "free range" methods of killing Chickens - and all other animals - my friend Mr Rooster glowers in disapproval.

He may be a Bantam, I may be 1.95 metres tall (6 feet 5 inches), but I find him TERRIFYING when he gets in this state!

Please Erik, change your websites URL, (might I suggest "" or ""?), if not for me, then for the animals I love.


Jordan Wyatt

P.S I would love to hear you debate with Professor Francione again"

So far, I havnt gotten a response from Erik.  I think I can imagine what would be said however.

When I've asked why other Animal Rights activists are NOT promoting Veganism, they normally state about how Veganism is seen as difficult by most people, or that I don't care about the animals suffering the horrors of quote "Factory Farming" right now.  I normally ask WHY other people see Veganism is difficult, who has been telling them otherwise?  I normally say I find it as easy to be Vegan as not, for example, the white substance on my morning cereal, there are two very different products on the same shelf, for around the same price.  I pick up the Soy Milk, its just as easy as picking up another kind of white liquid used to douse your morning cereal. 

And about "the animals suffering right now", I'm aware of them, but I understand the problem with Welfare reforms to be that it distracts from promoting Veganism, that it further sets up divisions between "what is the worst thing to do to nonhuman animals", perhaps on a 1 to 5 scale at Whole Foods, and that no reform I've ever heard of, even IF it succeeds, is implemented instantly, its always "oh, in the next five years it'll be phased in by industry…", which is often further delayed.

I don't think we should pretend that anything apart from Veganism is ethical, or right in our minds.  If its good enough for me to be Vegan, if I'm smart enough to understand killing other animals VS not killing other animals, then its easily understood by anyone.

Speaking of the words distractions, and divisions, very close to the REAL Animal Rights D Word...

 Abolitionist Vegan: "oh no, not the D word!" "Anything but the D word!  All my arguments, videos, statistics and resources, they cant help me now, I've been blown away by the D Bomb"

By the way, was anyone else afraid of Wizard of Oz growing up?  Not so much the melting witch death, "oh, who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness?", sounds like programming for children, "do what mummy tells you, be a good girl, brush your teeth, and you too can melt witches".  Actually, thats better than the LIES told to me by my parents, "eat your carrots Jordan, and you'll be able to see in the dark".  I also stopped eating the crusts of bread, I hated my curly hair. 

No, even scarier than screeching, green-painted women melting to death is the 1985 Return to Oz sequel,if you can call it that with such a hell of a time lapse, the original came out in 1939, hard to believe right?  Of all the movies I've ever seen, none will upset me more than Return to Oz.  I actually don't like watching it now, I bought the DVD.  I highly recommend anyone listening watch it, Return to Oz, I'll link to it in my sources.

Ok, so basically Dorothy now looks much younger, being played by a girl who goes on to star as love interest in The Waterboy, with Adam Sandler.  That awful Auntie Em, or should I say it more like "annie em", why not just save time and call her little dog "o o" as well?  I suppose its like YouTube and You TOOB, I'll stick with my NZ accent, otherwise it sounds fake, like when you try and pronounce a foreign language.  After poor Dorothy screamed her name a billion times in the 1939 original movie, Auntie Em ends up taking her on a long journey, by horse and cart.  We see the giant horse whip, and as Toto yips his warnings to Dorothy, who mentions being worried for him not finding his way home again, "Aunt Em, will he be alright?" Auntie Em without even looking back tells her "he will".  And where is Dorothy being taken to?  Why, a mental hospital of course, where some Quack explains how our brains run on electricity, and how this device he's made, with its dials that look like a face, will ZAP some sense into her.  The probes look like metal headphones. What has Dorothy done to deserve this?  Did she spend millions of dollars promoting quote "more humane" ways to kill innocent animals?  No, she instead still believes Oz is a real place.   Dorothy is leather strapped to the bed, ready for her 1.21 jigga watts of sense juice, when a storm cuts off power, and a mysterious girl rescues her.  The two little girls escape, as all about them, the actual mentally disturbed patients are moaning and screaming in the darkness, its scarier than the Hannibal Lecter prison scenes,  all the staff are screeching for them to be caught.  A strange flood, the girls fall into a swollen river, being chased by an evil looking nurse who claws at them, they fall into the river, hold onto a driftwood chicken coop looking crate, with the staff gazing down coldly at them, the other girl vanishes in the storm, presumably drowned, lets be honest here….even young Jordan watching on a VHS tape realized what had happened.

Sometime later, the storm has cleared, and Dorothy wakes up to find herself in Oz again.  Its hot, and she's surrounded by sand.  She has a talking animatronic Hen, Belina with her.  She recognizes the surrounding sand is "the deadly desert", yeah, you touch it, and turn to sand yourself….  this is a Disney movie made for Children remember……  Rocks start having evil faces appear in them, we find that somehow the Yellow Brick road is all blown up with spray painted yellow bricks every which way….oh, and everyone in the former, now jewel-less "emerald city" has been turned to stone, as they last were, they all look miserable.

I don't think I could imagine a happier place from all of Childrens books and movies than the Emerald city, the whole damn first movie is all singing, all dancing about how bloody great it all is, with midgets, from the lollipop guild no less, who do nothing but prance about all day.  I suppose there is one witch who creeps them out every now and then, but its not like she blows up the whole place, theres still lollipops and ponds everywhere.  I guess Willy Wonkas chocolate factory would come close, but its let down by its shocking safety record, the place really is geared up for quirkily killing children, Sweeny Todd style, where do you think Soylent Green comes from?  So the Emerald City would be my pick for "happiest place in Childrens fiction".   Another UNhappy place I could think of would be a sort of Neverland Ranch, where the farmed Children never grow up, as they're killed before their teenage years.

 And now, for no real reason, after decades have passed from the first movie, its shown blown up, why would they do that to?  I suppose its a good thing many who grew up with the original movie were long dead by the time Return To Oz showed up.

The horse of many colours was probably flogged to death and then sold for cat food by The Wizard.   Some of the statues have giant cracks through their bodies…other statues heads have fallen off…..a foreshadowing of a future witch who changes her head….and wants to cut off Dorothys own after locking her in a "non humane" room for her to mature….the only other living beings we find are a gang of freaks calling themselves "wheelers", who roll about on all fours, with rusty wheels for hands and feet,  dressed in purple leather suits, tentacles,with masks, they chase down a little girl and her Chicken Friend, into a dead end, and then have her trapped in a stone room … this really is a Childrens movie, and by Disney too….you'll hear their rusty wheels in the clip, and those laughs….

Presumably the Wheelers are the OZ equivalent of the real world Mentally disturbed patients. 

The Gnome King turns out to be a creep made of stone who makes statues of living people.  Imagine being a little boy, visiting his local Museum, which has a Victorian exhibit with period costume similar to the movie, with mannequins, being told by an older friend they come to life at night…..of walking through the gardens with white statues of people…just like in the movie…..

Regardless of the fact they're a pack of gang members who just chased a young girl into a dead end, its obvious to me that anyone who DOESNT like Chickens is a very nasty person, who needs to learn how to behave...  And by a tarnished gold robot, called tick tock, like that idiot song by "kesha" or whatever, he really is a rip off from the Star Wars movies, the quote "final" movie Return of the Jedi would have come out two years before Return to Oz, they even ripped off the name, imagine C3PO and R2D2 melded together, a short squat man, made of gold.  Somehow, he's good at beating up wheeled freaks, teaching them to behave.

We can skip over the evil Gnome King, and the locked up freak with a pumpkin for a head who keeps calling little Dorothy "mom", giant vine hands brought to life with magic powder…., at one point, Jack's pumpkin head actually drops off, while they are flying on a monster they brought to life called a Gump…I think of it while watching Forest Gump…it had the green, moldy looking head of a killed stag quote "trophy"….his head falls off, to fall through the clouds while he calls "help me muuuuuuuum"….of Dorothy stealing the key from a sleeping headless body, to unlock a mirrored cabinet filled with other sleeping heads….the mirrored cabinet contains the head changing Mombi's original head…which is hideous…and comes to life as Dorothy steals the magic powder that turns Things into Somebodies…. the screaming heads wake up the headless body…. and in the end, Dorothy wakes up back home…seeing the mysterious girl, Ozma, ruler of Oz in her dresser mirror…when asked by that awful Auntie Em what she shrieked about, she has to pretend not to see the vision…are you nuts?  She doesn't want to be pulled by a whipped horse back to the mental hospital again!  Well, a different one, its mentioned the place burnt down, probably a bit like the death scene in The Green Mile where there was no water on the sponge, a screaming disturbed patient caught on fire and the place burned to the ground.  The evil doctor himself burnt to death, and the main nurse is seen being taken to prison, for what, I'm not sure, probably for scaring little girls.  Its just a freaky movie, and again, Disney thought this was appropriate for kids.  It creeps me out still!  I'm glad they decided to focus on nicer movies, like The Lion King. 

The movie really couldn't be any worse, it destroys EVERYTHING anyone ever loved about The Wizard of Oz, which was apparently seen as scary for its time.  It couldn't be a worse sequel even if The Cowardly Lion showed his courage by eating Toto whole, and then badly mauling Dorothy, it really couldn't be.  Oh, I should mention that the budget was too cheap, at the end The Coward Lion is a nontalking animatronic lion, the Scarecrow is a giant cartoon style puppet, made real, the Tinwoodsman a weird looking cartoon robot.  They all hardly talk, except to say "Dorothy!" every now and then, such as when they are brought back to life.  Legal guardians not believing what actually happened to you, dropping you off at mental hospital to be shocked regardless of what you have to say, of mysterious girls drowning beside you, of sand that turns you to …well, more sand…., of purple leather suited freaks who roll about on wheels….of heads kept alive in cabinets….of a land where Chickens are hated.    

What a terrible, terrible movie, terrifying for young boys left alone to watch from a blurry VHS tape…..still, it has nothing on that devastating D word, Divisive.

I received my first DMCA take down, the American Music Industry was annoyed with me for playing a song on Episode 35.  Probably for playing that Justin Bieber song, funny that, I use a short clip from some idiot pop song, and my whole episode, where I pour out my heart about losing my Hen Friend, and it gets taken down by Google automatically, yet nobody at the International Bureau of Weights and Measures bitched when I created a whole new Metric term dedicated to Dr Yates, which of the two is more important historically?  I linked to the music too, I buy all songs that I've played, and encourage others to buy music, if anything, the use of very short clips in podcasts serves as promotion for the song, I sure know I buy songs from iTunes all the time after hearing them on podcasts.

Anyway, I'd better be more careful in future about using music from those who sell their souls to the Mob, I mean, American recording labels.  Although, what are they gonna do?  Fly down here in their private jet, all 20 odd hours of the flight, to cut the USB cord of this headset mic?  "don't you be violating Mr Biebers masterpieces ever again, capish?"  Huh, I'll let the Giant and Colossal Squid deal with them, big shots from the Northern Hemisphere wouldn't have a clue about terrors of the South Pacific deep.  They're used to wriggling about, and slimy practices, but all it'll take is a quick "hey guys, would you like to brush your teeth while you're here?  Just a little closer to the drain… thats it….", then  Its All Over Now, Baby Blue, they'll experience Subterranean Homesick Blues at the bottom of the Pacific, they'll soon be Knocking at Heavens Door allright.

I have to come clean here, I've only been Vegan for two years, at the end of this year.  For whatever reason, I figured out aspects of Vegetarianism for myself, I drank soy milk, didn't eat Hens Periods, I mean, Birds Eggs, didn't wear Skin or Wool, but continued to eat products with milk inside.  I guess because everything in New Zealand has milk as a contaminant. 

So I can hardly lecture other Vegans on Veganism, "teaching your grandmother to suck Vegan Egg Substitute" as the old New Zealand saying goes.  I can surely talk about how I found out about Veganism, how I probably had never heard of the term before I became Vegan myself, its not something that was brought up here, I don't remember seeing Vegan clothing, or "suitable for Vegans" labels, the large quote Animal Rights groups never promoted Veganism here. 

From what I can tell, things have really taken off, seriously, think of how Veganism is known by Mainstream people, how the term is used casually, by Beer ads, and Farmers, "those blardy Vegans again…".  Once upon a time, it was Vegetarians who were the weirdos, now its Vegans, next it'll be Raw Vegans, then Fruitarians, and finally Breath-a-tarians.  Newspaper articles promoting Happy Meat and the other "byproducts" we take from animals use the term Vegan, not Vegetarian.  I think its great to be recognized! 

And I can think of those who have been influenced just by knowing me, of friends who worked for SAFE here, who have gradually moved away from Welfare Reforms, who were Vegetarians for years, who are now Vegans just from knowing someone who talked about Veganism for a few months.  What they decide to do is their decision, I certainly don't have a little notebook where I tally up scores, as if I'll have a bigger mansion up in Heaven for "converting" more people. 

I'm trying to do as much as I can to promote Veganism, I write in to Newspapers, the ones that are still staggering about, waiting for the comet to extinct their Jurassic Asses, blogs, through Social Media, such as Facebook and Twitter.  Think about it, each time I post something about Veganism on Facebook, all my quote "friends" see it, the people who went to school with me, who I havnt seen in years get to hear me talk about how much I love Chicken Friends now.  And on Twitter, I search for the word Vegan, and try and offer friendly advice to people saying "I'm thinking about being Vegan but PETA tell me its really hard…"  I also comment on the really negative comments, things like "you know the worst place in the world to be for Thanksgiving?"  I think the answer is pretty much anywhere but the two countries that celebrate that particular genocide of native peoples, of killing birds for us to gorge upon, nobody else in the world has a clue about Thanksgiving, but whatever.  No, apparently the correct answer for worse Thanksgiving locations include being in Prison, and being at a Vegans house.  Because that "tofurkey" has GOT to taste worse than eating someones flesh, right?  With the bones, skin, fat…the guts in a plastic bag inside…., they do that right?

By being genuinely warm and friendly, I've managed to turn people who dismiss Veganism into friends, or at least "followers".  One brat, probably about 10 years old was going on and on about Virgins, oh how experienced he was, oh how the ladies loved "bigdick69" or whatever his name on Twitter was.  And then he got stuck into those Vegans.  I sent a good natured message about Veganism to him.  He somehow brought up Virgins in relation to Veganism, and made some rude remark about me being both, because surely, Women are only attracted to Men who kill and eat animals, right?   So I posted that it really isn't too difficult to figure out that, well, supposedly, stereotypically theres about 9 Vegan women to every Vegan man.  That many of those Vegan women wouldn't be interested in a relationship with a Nonvegan, and so who happens to fall from the sky, but little old me, one of the roughly 10 Vegan guys on this whole island.  Well, surely after such a drought, tall, sensitive Vegan Guys with Chicken Friends are very popular with the Vegan Ladies, right?  The brat conceded this was sound logic, and decided to "follow" me on Twitter.  By being friendly, a fairly abusive little punk turned out to be all talk, trying to impress…someone…the internet….and his 5 Twitter followers, but underneath it all, a decent person.  I can remember how I was before being Vegan, how I probably would have felt others were "preaching" or "self righteous".  I do my best to avoid coming off that way, to mention how I see Veganism as good enough for me, good enough for EVERYONE.

Another fun conversation on Twitter was had with a guy saying he was having a date…with a Vegan soon….and would she mind him eating animals?  I replied that she probably would, but most certainly the animals don't want to be killed, that they would mind.  Well, from there he went fairly nuts, tweeting a dozen times about how pushy, obnoxious, lame, whiny, moany, complainy, any other made up word he could image.  I stayed very polite throughout, which normally angers people MORE, until I was finally told I could, politely, go eff myself.  Well, in the meanest tweet I sent to him, I said that with such an attitude towards others, human and nonhuman alike, that his Vegan date would probably leave him to do just that tonight!

A recent article about a Vegetarian who would eat the flesh of a Turkey caught my attention, being Vegetarian for environmental reasons she said, she found herself deciding that she couldn't think of reasons NOT to eat a "free range heritage breed turkey"….seriously, I was at work at the time, I nearly broke my iPhone from the surprise.  How the hell could a Vegetarian think that?  "oh, its good to eat these birds, because otherwise The Bad Kind of Farmers, you know, Factory Farms, Mass Production, Standard Breeds…..they win otherwise, unless I pay for this animal to be killed….but I'm still Vegetarian…for the environment…."  Outrageous.  She was asking for cooking tips, calling herself a "turkey virgin".  Heres one reason that springs to mind, we shouldn't be killing others, because they don't want to die.  That each Turkey is no doubt just as special as my Chicken Friends. 

Most of the advice had jokes about Vegetarians and Vegans, "glad you've realized how nuts those freaks are…" etc.  One comment was from a Vegan who was upset about how animals were treated, the comment ended, I kid you not, with "at the very least say a very big sorry to the animal on your plate…"  Now, I mean, I guess I could take that as sarcasm, as something typed out while upset….but at the same time, I could see it as a genuine request by PETA.  A way of "making people understand that animals were alive and now they were put to sleep for us", either worded like that while describing a "heritage" breed"free range" raised animal, or it would "…they MURDER these innocent animals on awful evil nasty FACTORY FARMS…", you can "help the animals, go veg now!" 

Unless you have dementia, you should still be aware I look after Chickens, and love them very much.  Last night I ate my dinner outside, and had my little friends clamoring to get on the plate and eat with me.  It was rather cute looking…I guess….but irritating at the same time!  They've all sorts of tricks, ways to peck at me a certain way, and then making eye contact, they really are meaning "come on!  give in, I want it!"  If I bring my bag outside, and it has bread rolls inside, they'll drag their beaks across the material twice, meaning they want the bread.

I don't really see much difference between Turkeys and Chickens, especially not ethically.  I could NEVER so much as sarcastically JOKE about, "well, make sure you say sorry to the headless corpse", whose ears were ground up into who knows what, Turkey McNuggets, Cat food, I wouldn't have a clue.  Theres no way that a dead headless body can understand, or care, how sorry you are that you just paid money for the living animal to be killed.

<1 min 10 wheels still in spin>

Well, SAFE's campaign wheel still hasn't hit Veganism yet, but I'm hoping, theres hope for everyone to change. 

The best outcome would be for Erik Marcus to be Abolitionist himself, that he'll drop the talk of how great it is when people switch to Free Range X, or Whole Foods 5 step Welfare Standards that, and speak about Veganism.  Its crazy that Nonvegan people visit Vegan Dot Com, and find fairly little information about actual Veganism, it really is.  I would love nothing more than for Erik to promote Veganism, he has a great website address for it after all, and I think he's a confident speaker about the issues.  I don't agree with how he sees things, but I'm sure he's a nice person.

Failing that, please Erik, if you really have no interest in promoting Veganism as the *least* we can do for other animals, I'd love if you'd give the name over, so it could redirect to the Abolitionist Approach site, or hell, I'd take it off your hands, this ol' Blogspot account aint what she used to be.  I'm sure I could get a 7th listener, or maybe even an 8th if I had Vegan Dot Com, a really obvious address.  I love looking through my logs, to see how people found my site, the best entries are from those looking to buy the nonVegan products I mention, they've seen the ad for "real mans Yoghurt", made from stolen baby animals food, from a mother forced into knocked-up-itude, and they come across my blog, my show, promoting Veganism.  I had an "awwwwwwwwwww" moment when I saw a UK visitor had found my site searching on Google for "sleeping hen videos".  I'm not sure if they heard me talking about Ms Hen, the last video I have of her alive, the video is on my YouTube account, but they found it anyway.  My blog is about the third hit for "Sleeping Hen Video" on UK Google, although it makes a difference if you're logged in or not, the search results you'll get.

Vegans promoting Veganism is really becoming popular, I love hearing, and seeing about what others are doing down here in New Zealand, getting out there on the street each weekend, and talking about Veganism.  These activists don't need any salary to do this, they talk with people, and hand our Abolitionist Vegan information because they care about animals, they do this with their own time and money. 

Despite the Invercargill Vegan Society having but a single member who turns up for meetings, Veganism is actually taking off, here, and worldwide.  I prefer to think of it as 100% of the payroll going right to me.  I'm trying to do more myself, I think we're really getting that wheel spinning, and things most certainly seem to be different now, we don't need large Welfare promoting groups, or websites, we're doing just fine by promoting Veganism with Vegan volunteers.

I was at the bank yesterday when the GORGEOUS teller, with her BEAUTIFUL red hair asked me "is there anything else I can do for you?",  for the millionth time that day, as she flickered between making eye contact and looking at my Vegan badges.  I wished her a wonderful day, they're not used to the CUSTOMER telling THEM that. I hope in future, if she sees my badges again, that she'll ask, or, who knows, maybe she's Vegan herself, and then The Invercargill Vegan Society can have a second member! 

I'm not the only person who believes IVS should have more than one member, Barbara DeGrande of was helpful to send me this clip

You can find Barbaras own website and podcast at

Vegans promoting Veganism, which in turn creates more Vegans, who would have guessed?

With Harmonica like that, who needs Bells and Whistles?

By promoting Veganism as a moral baseline, we're all making REAL progress. 

Thank you for listening to Coexisting With Nonhuman Animals.

You can find the script for this episode, as well as downloads for every episode of Coexisting With Nonhuman Animals at coexisting with nonhuman animals .

If you want to contact me, even just to say you listened, send an email to, or on Twitter, j a y w o n t d a r t,  I'd appreciate it.

Thank you for listening.


Fonterra (dairy giant) dumping millions of litres each day into rivers

Mataura (and its waterfalls!)

Slaughterhouse on the left, paper mill on the right, both (the paper mill is closed) dumped crap into the river, the Falls are just past both in this photo, the "rock wall" you can see

BEAUTIFUL photos of the Mataura Falls, they are are few metres high (I guess!  I've never been close to them!)

Mataura local with a grudge against wealthy American who owns most properties in the town

Giant Squid

"build a squid" awful game

Return To Oz (sequel to The Wizard of Oz)

Return To Oz "Wheelers"

Quotes on Slavery

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