Thursday, May 17, 2012

Episode 81 Vegan Bubbles

Episode 81 Vegan Bubbles

New logo design, Coexisting With Nonhuman Animals listener survey (which you can find at , please fill it out! :-) ), The Vegan Option friendly competition, Hearts, Necks, Frames, Friends, Expanding our Vegan circle, our "Vegan Bubble", Shooting Ducks to death, an Emergency doctor speaks out on drunken injuries, "just shut up and do your job!" says angry commenter, Vegan Potlucks in Invercargill, INVSOC taking off, Veganism spreading around the world :-)

Listen now by downloading directly from here or, better yet, subscribe in iTunes to get each episode automagically!
Coexisting With Nonhuman Animals iTunes link

Hello and welcome to another episode of Coexisting With Nonhuman Animals, Episode 81, Vegan Bubbles

I recently got an app called "Paper" on my iPad, its a really fun, simple way to draw, and while I have no creative abilities for art, I do enjoy doodling away in the sunshine outside with the Chicken Friends.  This episode has a work in progress logo design, made by drawing a few of the different Chicken Friends, and then moving the images around using Pixelmator, a drawing tool on my iMac.  I essentially drew a quick black outline of a few different Chickens, then shaded them in using the watercolour tool, real masterpiece stuff, right?

I drew a definite Mr Rooster, and Black Chick, thats my second attempt at drawing her after the first was a big blurry warped mess of splurges, the other Chicken Friends are less accurate, as in, even less "accurate" than my doodled orange Mr Rooster-esque drawing and squiggly Black Chick :-)  There are currently a Rescued Hen, and a Yellow bantam Hen, *not* Yellow Hen herself I decided, as I couldn't figure out how to half assingly draw Yellow Hen right.   There were six Yellow bantam Hens, and the Yellow Chicken Friend drawn is an example of them all.

When I have time, or a sudden infusion of artistic skill, I'll hopefully improve the image.

Its great to see more people have taken the Coexisting With Nonhuman Animals listener survey, which you can find at , theres a link to it on the upper right side of the website, under "Important Links".

I'd love if you'd spend a minute of your time to fill out the short survey to tell me what I'm doing wrong, what would make the show better to listen to.  It only takes a minute, heres an idea, just skip the last minute of this episode, where I basically always say the same thing, and use that minute to take the survey!  Rather than reading my thank you's and "you can find this show at " etc, it would be really great if I could figure out how to record a clip of myself saying it, and then simply add that clip to the end of each episode, yeah?  Shame I don't know how to include clips in this crazy podcasting thing ;-)

The survey is truly anonymous, so there no need for being a decent human being and saying a token positive thing or two, although one person did include their name, which was a really nice touch, thank you to my new friend Kathy Monton up there in Canada, on the other side of the world!  As I always say in the last minute of the show you could just skip by now, and instead fill out the survey at, Thank *you* for listening, Kathy :-)

I also have a Facebook comment from Elisa,  "hi Jordan..i love your podcast and sometime i need to do a little clip of my voice and name and blog for your intro :-) love hearing about your chicken friends. you keep me sane driving to work. my car is my vegan "safety zone" while driving around this cruel non vegan world.."

You can find Elisa's blog at , free heel

I also received an email from Eric, Elisas husband, so hello to both of you :-)

Finally, my friend Julie, of Animal Rights and Wrongs told me "listening to your podcast makes doing dishes fun!"   Thanks Julie!  Whatever it takes to pretend washing dishes is fun, I'm glad to help out!  Actually, if I ever need an endorsement, can I please use that?  "Listening to your podcast makes doing dishes fun!", in big bold letters.

If you'd like to hear someone with a funny New Zealand accent mangle your name, send me an email,, info @ invsoc .org .nz, and I'll include your message in a future episode.  Or add me on Facebook, Jordan Wyatt.  Theres even a fancy new Coexisting With Nonhuman Animals Facebook page, where I'll comment each time I make a new blogpost, or upload a new episode of the show.  I would love if you'd click the "Like" button :-)  Just search for " coexisting with nonhuman animals " on Facebook, and it should pop right up.

With the survey, the most common traits among people who listen to Coexisting With Nonhuman Animals (trying to promote the brand here by constantly repeating the shows name, Coexisting With Nonhuman Animals) and who've filled out the short survey are that yes, they WERE bribed to take the survey, they've been listening over a year, they found the show through Facebook, so thank you to everyone who shares a link amongst their friends, the most popular named episode is the interview of Dr Will Tuttle, Episode 73 "Dr Tuttle has a Rolling Home", good choice guys.

The interview with Diana and Ian of "The Vegan Option" is, like their show "The Vegan Option", very popular.  Just remember loyal Coexisting With Nonhuman Animals listeners, Jim Camron's  sequel Aliens is a totally awesome film, with a budget some 7.5 million USD greater, and with more action scenes, higher production values and perhaps a more focused, less "tangential" plot….but we ALL know that sequels SUCK, right?  "ohhhh, look at meeeeee, I'm Ian and Diana Camron, maker of quality podcasts as Terminator, Terminator 2, Titanic, and Avatar, the latest two being the first and second highest earning movies of all timmmmmme!"  Yeah? Well the original Alien was made by one Ridley Scott, who filmed not only the much loved "1984" commercial introducing the original Macintosh computer for Apple, but also Blade Runner, Hannibal……and um, Thelma and Louise.

I mean, what do Dr Ian, professional podcast producer extraordinaire and Ms Professor Diana S Fleischman, lecturer at the University of Portsmouth, author of Progesterone, Disgust and Disease Avoidance have that I don't?  Well, through a combination of having courage, a heart, silver slippers (made red in the movie to show off the fact it was in colour, at least after they land in Oz-tralia), oh, and a BRAIN,  they have an understanding of what the heck all this crazy stuff means, "progesterone, disgust and disease avoidance" by Professor Diana S Fleischman.  It cant be THAT difficult, right?  I TOTALLY understand this stuff too you know!:

"My doctoral dissertation centered on the effects of progesterone on women's psychology. The rationale for this research is anchored in the endocrinology of immunity. Progesterone causes the downregulation of pro-inflammatory immune responses. This immunomodulation facilitates pregnancy by preventing the woman's immune system from attacking the half-foreign blastocyst. Because of adaptive immunomodulation, women face a critical problem during the high progesterone, or luteal, phase of the menstrual cycle, as the relaxation of inflammatory responses temporarily leaves women more vulnerable to infection. My research investigates the behavioral prophylaxis hypothesis, the idea that patterned changes in attitudes and emotions can lead to alterations in behavior that mitigate or compensate for a reduction in immune function."

"ohhhhh, yeah….simple!"

Ok, so I've got nothing on Dr Ian and Professor Diana…..EXCEPT an interview episode with Dr Will Tuttle, which just happens to be the most popular episode of Coexisting With Nonhuman Animals.  Hey, thats another one, if you remember my interview with Ian and Diana, Episode 75 The Vegan Obligatory, I ask them if Animal Rights is just a big contest to have the most principles or tenets or bullet points, The Vegan Option, thats three, Coexisting With Nonhuman Animals, HA, in your face jerks, thats FOUR, so that means I win!  I mean, its not like your show would be more popular if it had a concise, simple easy to remember, easy to spell name, right? 

Dr Will Tuttle, a man who's all about "Radical Inclusion" would *totally* be keen to Unexplainably Decline an interview with two really nice people, right?  Of course he will! He radically includes things polar opposites!  So I've still got the Dr Tuttle advantage, HA!

Everyone likes a sore loser, right?

Just remember, while you're listening to The Vegan Option, theres always this other show that you can ALSO listen to…..right?  Right?  Please?

heres a clip from my interview episode with my friends the fantastic Ian and Diana of The Vegan Option,  from Episode 75 "The Vegan Obligatory" :

Sometimes it feels like you're living in a nightmarish world, when your Vegan Bubble of podcasts and blogs bursts, it pops, it washes away under the acid rain of Non Veganism….. like when you're walking home from work, past the "dairy factory" which now seems to specialize in also handling SHEEPS MILK, which is very odd, they even make ice cream from SHEEPS milk……then on the next block I walk past a butcher shop, where on Wednesday there was a man emptying their rubbish bins.

Walking past a butcher shop, a short man with a ponytail drove a HUGE open backed truck up to their drive and parked. Loading the butcher shops rubbish bins onto the hydraulic lift on the truck, they were lifted the ~3M or so into the air all at once and WOULDNT want to be anywhere close to the open bins....the stink was unreal, I thought about taking a video of the bizarre scene, rib cages sawn in half, parts of heads and what could only briefly be seen as tumbling "offal", livers, intestines, I dont know what else, slimy globs of brown, red and pink tumbling through the air into the truck. "NOT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION" indeed.

Then later going to the supermarket and seeing the people getting in each others way to buy animal body parts wrapped in plastic, a whole huge section of killed Chickens…..then the "offal" section, where there are literal hearts and livers……"chicken frames", the cartilage and bone left after they rip out most of the Rooster or Hens body…..leaving only this plastic looking cartilage and rough scraps of muscle left in a big plastic packet for a couple of dollars….then theres CHICKENS NECKS, labelled as such too, kinda asparagus looking pink lumps, their clever necks, how Chickens can easily turn their entire necks around to look behind them, how they can clean every part of their body with their beak, they do this kind of closed eyes "beak wobble" to reach their tail feathers.  If you think about the hand gesture when we express "meh, its so-so, whatever, I don't really care, whatever, either way" etc, that kinda of apathetic hand shaking slowly from side to side.  Thats what Chickens do with their heads, they slowly wobble their heads side to side with their necks stretched right back to clean their tail feathers.

In one of my earlier drawings of Yellow Hen, when the Yellow Chicken drawn was specifically Yellow Hen, I drew one image of her with her head looking back, her neck twisted right around.

I like the idea of showing something fairly unique to Chickens, something that they do that is fairly unusual, but perhaps it would also look unpleasant and off-putting to people not used to the idea that Chickens easily turn their heads around with their long clever necks.  So I went with a fairly standard image of a Yellow Chicken instead.

And at supermarkets, we cut their heads off, cut their necks off their bodies and sell them in a pink pile for a couple of dollars.

Next to that is a literal pile of…hell, a couple dozen CHICKENS HEARTS….thats what they're labelled too, CHICKENS HEARTS….each the size of a walnut say, often with one corner of the plastic tray filled with blood from all the hearts, where its pooled against the plastic wrap……..all the metaphorical love that my Chicken Friends have, how they run to meet me each day, how they all have personalities and preferences, how they are all so very different from each other, each Hen Friend unique in her own special way……thats where it comes from, well, thats what keeps them alive, those tiny hearts, that we sell for a few dollars per couple dozen, sitting in their own refrigerated blood……unable to pump it away, out of that corner where its seeped, out of the plastic.  

Its absolutely mind blowing, this is the Non Vegan world we live in.   That we *currently* live in, a world which is changing, one person at a time.  You know that line about "all it takes is one light to shine through the darkness"?  Well, compared to a pile of dead hearts on a plastic tray in Invercargill Pak n Save, lets show this Non Vegan world what a living, beating heart can do, what my heart and what your heart can enable us to do, what just one person can do by getting active and promoting Veganism, by promoting respect, peace and love for our Chicken Friends, for all our friends.

Its not about being a "bleeding heart" greenie, but by showing what we can do when powered by our beating heart, where our love comes from, deep down in the veins and ventricles and everything………… right Diana?

The New Zealand Herald, our leading news resource had an article on New Zealand Race Horses (or, more accurately, horses used in racing) being killed, being slaughtered for human consumption overseas.  I wrote a quick blogpost about it, which you can see at , links to various articles about "Clover Exports", the horse slaughterhouse in Gore, an hour or so drive north of Invercargill, the only slaughterhouse in New Zealand certified to kill horses for human consumption.  The Herald mention the weird name, "Clover Exports", for a horse slaughterhouse, well, in George Orwells story "Animal Farm", one of my favourite stories of all time, theres a horse named Boxer, admired for his strength.  Boxer is taken to a knackery, to a slaughterhouse when he becomes injured, when he is no longer seen as useful, and his partners name?  Well, her name is….CLOVER.  She yells out to him while he's on the way to the slaughterhouse.

I'd taken a photo of a tribute to "Cardigan Bay", a famous horse used in racing, famous for being "the first million dollar pacer", the first standard bred horse used in racing to win a total of one million dollars over his career of being made to run in a circle, like a Non Vegan version of NASCAR.  I found the memorial near the small street named after him through Geocaching with my friend Kristy, theres a geocache hidden in bushes near the street, telling the history.  Without my hobby of Geocaching, I wouldn't have known about Cardigan Bay, the worlds first non thoroughbred (I think thats like whole meal, or wheat bread, thoroughbred) horse used in racing to win over a million dollars.  And this tribute, as you'll see in the photo I took on my blog, has a slaughterhouse right behind it.  What a lovely picturesque site, you take a photo of a tribute to an animal we used to make over a million dollars, and literally right behind the sign is a slaughterhouse, great planning guys, in real estate, its all about location, location, location!

The actual horse slaughterhouse is a couple kilometres further north.

Truly, sometimes I almost forget I *dont* live in a majority Vegan world, sometimes, its truly shocking to feel like you're the only one who feels whats happening is wrong, when you're the only Vegan in a room of Non Vegans eating other animals and their secretions, and even their skin.  I remember a couple of years ago when I dressed tidily for a funeral….but my father was angry with me for wearing clean, new looking canvas shoes.  They weren't offensive, they were tidy….but they were canvas, Chuck Taylor style shoes.  He thought that was really informal, and that he'd make me wear a pair of his shoes, that are non vegan, made from animal skin.  I didn't exactly raise my voice, but I was a bit more blunt than I usually am, I said that we were going to be paying our respects to one preserved body, and that I didn't want to have someone killed so I could wear *their* preserved skin over my socks.  In the end, I went in my clean, tidy, Vegan friendly, animal friendly shoes.

But, I was aware that I was in a room filled with farmers, in a church actually, with people singing religious praises, who included "stock truck drivers", people who drive huge double deck trailers of trapped animals to the slaughterhouse, slaughterhouse workers, farmers…..all wearing animal skin shoes - out of respect of course, to look good - and yet they might think *I* was the untidy one for not wearing animal skin shoes, but instead a pair of very clean, new looking "sneakers", and I served as a pallbearer, carrying my aunts coffin from the hearse to her grave.


Heres another weird local story, about a fertilizer truck skidding out of control due to "cow excrement", but presumably not the breast secretions made for her children, instead, the more unisex, non pregnate-ed substance usually described as "top quality dairy effluent"

Urea truck skids on 'skate rink' corner

"A JR Milne & Son truck overturned at West Plains yesterday morning, spilling fertiliser.
Emergency services and regional council staff were called to the incident on Ferry Rd shortly before 11am.
Police constable Kate Kelly said the truck, which was carrying 2.1 tonnes of urea, appeared to have slid off the road.
JR Milne & Son dispatcher Wayne Morrison said the truck had slid in cow excrement while driving across the bridge on its way to a dairy farm.
It was a dangerous corner, he said.
"Someone's going to get killed there one day.
"It [the truck] locked up. It was like a skate rink," he said.
The driver was taken to hospital by car.
He had a broken nose and sore ribs, he said.
Environment Southland compliance manager Mark Hunter said the council had carried out investigations in the past after several members of the public had reported effluent in the area.
The investigation revealed there was no direct discharge into the water, he said.
However, the landowner was planning to look into another way to get his cows across, he said.
It was believed none of the fertiliser from the truck had made its way into the Oreti River and the truck company cleaned the site yesterday afternoon."

I see mention of these sorts of issues often in farming forums, the farmers themselves like to downplay it, or blame the "stock trucks", you know, the big trucks for moving our property around, living breathing excreting animals.  On rural New Zealand roads, you'll sometimes see a green slime on the road, which is apparently rather slippery.

Its  the duck killing season here in Southland, New Zealand, "Duck Shooting".  Almost solely men, out there with their mates in the bush with guns….and alcohol, always alcohol.  They sit on old recliner chairs, La Z Boy types and point their guns from behind the netting they hide behind, or their tin shacks, called "mai mais", mai, mai, a type of hunting blind.  

Dr lashes out at drunken shooters

Southland Hospital's emergency department has seen up to five duckshooters each season who have shot themselves while intoxicated – but they have not been reported to police.
Southern district area commander Inspector Lane Todd said the numbers in the emergency department during duckshooting season – which begins in the first weekend of May – were only just coming to the attention of police.
Exact numbers of hunters injuring themselves from accidentally discharging a firearm were not known to police, he said.
However four to five a season in the emergency department "is quite crucial information".
In January Dr Jim McVeagh, (wonder if he's related to Timothy)  former head of emergency at Southland Hospital, blasted "weekend warrior" duck hunters on his blog, saying he would see as many as five people each duckshooting season who had shot themselves.
Dr McVeagh, who worked in the emergency department at Invercargill from 1995 to 2002, said in every case, alcohol was involved.
"Of the dozens of shooting incidents [I have] seen, [I] have yet to see one where the perpetrator was sober at the time of the shooting. Not one. Zero. Nada," he wrote in his blog MacDoctor. "Several of the shooters could hardly stand, let alone aim and shoot a gun."
Yesterday, Dr McVeagh said Southland had the highest number of shooting incidents during duckshooting season he had experienced during his career as a doctor, in close to 10 hospitals.
"It is definitely a culture of going out and getting plastered. My impression was that they were more weekend warriors than serious duck hunters."
The worst injury he had seen was a man who had taken off his thumb. However, unless a hunter had shot another person, the incident was not always reported to police, he said.
Yesterday current emergency department head at Southland Hospital Dr Martin Watts said he had seen between two and three shot people in the first week of duck season every year.
Alcohol was "absolutely" involved in each incident.
Dr Watts said while he did not know exact numbers, Southland Hospital had more incidents than he had experienced at other hospitals.
"It does seem to be cultural. It is known as a party weekend."
The worst case he had seen was a man who had shot himself in the arm while intoxicated. The hunter was "bloody lucky" he did not lose his arm or hit a major artery and bleed to death.
Reporting self-injuries to police was "an interesting area" for emergency doctors.
"It is our responsibility [to report an incident] if we think there is serious criminal activity," Dr Watts said.
Mr Todd said police were working with Southern District Health Board around privacy laws to have even the minor incidents reported.
"We take this extremely seriously. Just as a warning: if you drink and handle a firearm you are going to lose your license."
Southland Recreational Hunting Club president Ralph Youngman said that "lunatics" gave duck shooters bad publicity. "I've seen some of them go out with kegs to the mai-mais. Some of them are lunatics."

Reading these stories, I'm often amazed that we actually do these activities, that we go out there with guns, that we shoot guns for fun, that we kill small birds for fun.  New Zealand, a country where the police officers do not carry guns, because that would be NUTS, people walking about with guns everywhere, I don't care who they are, in the wild west, or in the police force, no guns!  Yet, for fun, regular New Zealanders from fairly rural towns or small cities will go out with a cheap hunting rifle and try and kill animals, for fun.

The comments on this story were interesting.

Andrew   #13   12:49 pm Apr 16 2012

Opinions from the Vegan camp always crack me up.

dogs   #12   10:34 am Apr 16 2012

Hear hear Steveo. Unfortunately a few always spoil it for many. It's simple people... put the guns away before the booze comes out. If anyone turns up at A&E pissed and shot, unless life threatning, should have to talk to the police before getting stitched up. And as a regular hunter... Wake up and smell reality Jordan!

Mike   #11   08:30 am Apr 16 2012

Men with guns = small penis syndrome.

Dandy   #10   08:24 am Apr 16 2012

I only shoot carrots...
Not because I am a vegementalist, more because I am a rubbish shot...

Steveo   #9   02:48 am Apr 16 2012

@ Jordan Wyatt #8
A deer, goat or pig is an "it". They are not a sub species of human beings. They are PESTS and if YOU took the time to take in our beautiful countryside like you are asking us to do you would see the damage these animals do. #5 I totally agree with you.
There are always idiots in whatever activity you choose to take part in dont blame the whole hunting community for the actions of a few idiots.

I thought I'd write a fun little comment, not offensive, but good spirited.  I decided to suggest some OTHER activities that we could do here in Southland rather than shooting ducks to death with our friends.

Jordan Wyatt   #8   08:07 pm Apr 15 2012

"Realist", if animal shooters really do go out with their bang bang sticks "to enjoy the great outdoors", could they not take in natures splendor *without* the weapons? Good heavens, this is Southland, not Siberia, ( my apologies to any listeners in Siberia, sorry to bash the rugged area where you live!)   I think you'll be able to manage a nice stroll through the countryside without your suit of armour and spud gun :-)
"...if you want to eat meat somebody has to kill it." Somebody has to kill *someone*, Other Animals are not "its", although that is the reference point we often take while killing *someone*, right? That they are "just an it", a thing, that we "have to do this" and to "get it over and done with".
Try geocaching, walking, running, mountain biking, painting the scenery, photography - or just flying your kite, there are plenty of ways to enjoy the outdoors without killing Other Animals to get your kicks.
Jordan Wyatt INVERCARGILL VEGAN SOCIETY "all animals are equal"

Jack Finnen   #7   01:15 am Apr 15 2012

When will society wake up to itself and make alcohol illegal..

Andy   #6   10:08 pm Apr 14 2012

Anyone who has a gun who is under the influence of alcohol deserves to be locked away for a very long time.

Realist   #5   09:18 pm Apr 14 2012

Connie you do realise that if you want to eat meat somebody has to kill it. There is nothing wrong with men or women going out and hunting for their food. Lots of people do this for both the enjoyment and to provide food for their families. Hunting is not just about shooting we enjoy being outdoors, being with our mates and getting out into the country can be pretty relaxing. I would argue hunters are much more in touch with nature and often do more for the preservation of the land and the well being of what they hunt than the hippy vegos who complain about hunting. Hunters preserve and rehabilitate wetland and conduct pest control and other measures to promote wildlife population growth.
At the same time I have no time for idiots who drink and shoot. They are a danger to themselves and their mates.
The hospital should be recording these incidents and reporting them to police so they can lay charges when they deem it appropriate.

sam   #4   03:58 pm Apr 14 2012

Just shut it already and do your one is perfect!

AKka   #3   03:55 pm Apr 14 2012

Kill the pests lads, kill the pests...

AJ   #2   01:53 pm Apr 14 2012

These incidents need to be reported to the police. Guns and Alcohol Do Not Mix and im sure there its against the law to discharge a firearm while under the influence of alcohol, just as its against the law to drive while under the influence. Do the Drs turn a blind eye to those who turn up injured from an 'incident' while drinking and driving?? Report them!

Connie   #1   12:57 pm Apr 14 2012

What a shame there isn't more of the idiots who shoot themselves whilst out killing ducks, deer etc. A pathetic sport for boys who think they are men. Want to go kill something, join the army and head off to Afghanistan. Lets see just how clever you all are when someone fires back at you."

This weekend, "duck shooting season" is opening, brave men, and almost always solely men go out and kill small, beautiful birds.  Our local newspaper The Southland Times always jokes about the gender stereotypes of the event, its almost ALWAYS only men who go out to the "maimais", the little sheds on the waterfront where they sit with beer on reclining chairs they buy cheap, while their wives are at home, or better yet, out having fun with advertised shopping promotions for "duck shooters wives".  The Southland Times will have retailers advertising for female shoppers, "come in and spend your money here while the man of the house is out duck shooting" etc.   A recent blog post you'll find at features my trip to New World supermarket, and how surprising it was to walk right in, and be greeted with posters advertising "my my, what great deals" on everything, I took a photo of the big sign with pictures of people killing ducks advertising cheap tomatoes and mushrooms.

I often talk with Farmers online, and seeing how they think is always very interesting, because those directly involved in harming and killing other animals often see them as the complete opposite to how you or I might see them.  Instead of being Chicken Friends, they are Chicken Things, they are property, they are an "it".

Heres a fun story about someone who claimed to have been Vegan once, an exvegan.

I have here a great comment from a farmer, a "Porka1", p o r k a and the number 1, who I know as a quote unquote "pig farmer", but who also has family ties or direct ties to a "egg farm".  This whole quote really is too much, the worries of cleaning dirty eggs, sometimes with BLEACH!  Its so much easier for the poor farmers where they can just sit on their bums all day, counting money, rather than having to worry about cleaning eggs or hens, as the cages and electric wires and rubber conveyor belts for the eggs that roll from the slanting wire cages all do their work for them!

"Free range commercial operations are not the welfare friendly system it is cracked up to be.To me is deliberately farming badly.Dealing to predators such as hawks ,ferrets and cats,then parasites such as red mite, fleas, lice and intestinal worms that need to be regularly treated with insecticides and anthelmintics, then other disease and coccidiosis that they pick up from drinking dirty contaminated water that needs treating with antibiotics.Dumb hens that all want to lay in the same nest box and then smother or get a hell of a fright and smother in the corners of their shelter.Then clucky hens that drive you nuts and have to be caged anyway because they prevent other hens from laying their eggs and dont lay any eggs.In damp winter conditions mud and shit accumulates on their toes much like making a snowball and have to be removed manually.Hens that eat eggs and also contaminate the other eggs so needing cleaning,hens that perch on the nest boxes all night and shit in them so contaminating other eggs ,hens with dirty feet especially in wet and dirty conditions walking over other eggs in the nest boxes so needing manual cleaning perhaps with bleach to remove stains.
I would rather close our operation down than do free range again than do all that menial boring and frustrating work dealing with dumb chickens.
95% of eggs are still cage eggs so that still tells me that people are intelligent enough to realise that it is an efficient and sanitary way to produce wholesome protein without the need for antibiotics and insecticides.
As for free range tasting better that is BS .We still get plenty of positive complements on our eggs having established the business from very small and humble beginnings in 1954 and now a third generation farm.
Changing to all free range will only result in market chaos as is currently being experienced in Europe with massive price increase currently being experienced.
Edited by porka1 at 5:27 pm, Tue 20 Mar
porka1 (48 )  5:25 pm, Tue 20 Mar #35"

So as you see, it just makes sense really, bang a whole bunch of Hens in cages, where they cant really move, they wont waste energy by walking, they just sit in the dark, eat, sleep, go to the toilet through the cage bars and lay eggs, thats their job, to lay eggs.  And its the farmers job to simply make sure food keeps going in, and eggs keep rolling out, free of the Hens, so they cant sit on their eggs, or get them dirty.  As soon as an egg is laid, it hits the cage floor, rolls down the sloped wire mesh away from the Hen, so she cant get it dirty.  Theres a little electric wire running along the front of their cages, so they cant try and hook the egg back with their beak as they naturally do.  If an egg gets away from a Hen, when she's sitting on ten or so, and one pops out from under her feathers a little, she reaches over with her long clever neck, and pushes it back down under, out of sight, safe and warm.  But not while on a cleverly designed farm, using cages, to stop those "dumb chickens" from making work for the smart farmer.  I mean, without those efficient housing systems, cages, its all quote "…menial boring and frustrating work dealing with dumb chickens".

I remember Roger Yates talking about a similar situation, something about a farmer finding it boring on the farm,how they didn't like the confinement of the farm system, of how restrictive the caging is….:

Ah, as always you're right Roger, the farmer feels HE is the one being confined by the chains, not the baby male, of COURSE its the farmer who's confined here, its from The Animals Film, about 17 minutes through the documentary

How do we avoid these issues, of killing birds for fun, shooting our friends instead,  slippery green goop on our rural country roads, and talking about "confining" farms?  By being Vegan.  By adopting Chicken Friends, and talking about them all the time.

 I myself hadn't met another Vegan until I'd been Vegan for about a year, then I was out going to get groceries, and I saw a bumper sticker  on a parked car saying, what I thought I must be imagining, the word VEGAN as we drove past.  I went back after we'd made a delivery for work and gotten groceries together, and bumblingly introduced myself to the first Vegan I'd ever met, Dan.  I scared the hell out of her, being much taller than her, in my work overalls, she thought I was their landlord at first or something.  Basically, the conversation went like this, I knocked on the door, her flatmate answered, I felt very uncomfortable, but asked "umm, is that your silver car outside?"  The Flatmate said no, it was Dans, and Dan came to the door, presumably thinking I'd crashed my car into her parked car or something, something terrible had happened.

I basically said "wow, so you're Vegan, I saw your bumper sticker?", she said uhh, yes I am, and I introduced myself a bit, the cards I'd made for my one member Vegan society, with my shows blog etc on them.  When I saw Dan, I wasn't exactly crying in pure happiness, but I was very, very excited indeed, a moment I'll always remember, meeting another Vegan, an actual, living, and most importantly, living in the same city as me Vegan, who actually lives on the SAME STREET as I do…..incredible.

Dan and I didn't stay in touch like I'd hoped, I felt a bit weird after giving her my card and her not getting back to me like I asked her to, after I'd been bursting to invite her to walk back the few blocks down the street to my house, introduce her to my Chicken Friends, and talk about being Vegan, the shows I listen to, our favourite blogs, whether she likes Michael Jackson, all that kinda stuff that Vegans do in person.

I'd tried my best not to come on too strong - its a little hard not to seem over eager when you've made business cards for your one member vegan society that you carry around with you at all times in public just in case the chance to talk about Veganism pops up - and basically, we went half a year without seeing each other again, while I knew there was another actual Vegan who actually lived a few minutes walk from my house, the first Vegan I'd ever met, who apparently didn't want to be my friend.  It hurt pretty bad.

To speed the story up, I asked my friend Elizabeth Collins just before I went to Auckland for the National Animal Rights Conference if I should reach out to Dan one last time.  Basically, as a guy, I've realized when a woman isn't interested in being your friend, you leave her alone.  I asked Elizabeth about contacting Dan one last time, making it clear it was the only time I'd reach out to her again, by leaving a nicely printed note in her mailbox, along with a couple INVSOC badges, you know, the logo I designed for my one man Vegan society, and went ahead with having badges made, to go with the business cards?   

The idea for INVSOC, the Invercargill Vegan Society actually came to me in a dream, where On Human Nonhuman Relations host Dr Roger Yates disembodied voice gave me the name Invercargill Vegan Society and even the acronym, INVSOC,  seriously!  Lucky I not only scribble down the craziest dreams I have on a piece of paper in the middle of the night, I also, apparently, have the technology to record my REM sleep brainwaves!   Hold on a second, I'll just reach over and push play on my dream recorder :

I don't care who you are, if you'd heard that ghostly voice in your dreams, then you'd have needed a new pair of pajama bottoms too!

I bolted upright in bed, scared as hell, that was a really spooky voice Roger!

I drew the logo design with a pencil, in the dark at first, and then I bothered to turn the light on.  It was 2am in the morning or so, once I'd broken free of being possessed by Roger, having scribbled out the vision like Dumbledore's thoughts flowing into the pensive, I fell fast asleep.

I'd left my email and cellphone number on the letter I wrote to Dan with the INVSOC badges, and after giving her the first version of INVSOC business cards I'd made for my one member Vegan Society, by the second time I contacted Dan, I'd already made a second, better designed set of INVSOC business cards for my one member Vegan Society, I included one of those.

Before I left for Auckland, for the National Animal Rights Conference, Dan got in contact with me, saying she wished me well, how she was from Auckland, that I should try the Vegan restaurants up there, and that she'd see me when I got back.  

So -  how is the Invercargill Vegan Society doing?  How is our little Vegan bubble in Invercargill, New Zealand going?

Well, heres a clip from our April INVSOC potluck dinner, our friend Natalie was moving away to the North Island having completed her course in video production here at the Southern Institute of Technology, we'll miss her a lot.  I've  interviewed Natalie before, most recently on Episode 76 "Eye on INVSOC" about our article in a local newspaper, together Natalie and myself represented INVSOC and Vegans everywhere.

You can hear the full interviews, also including reporter Frances who interviewed us for The Invercargill Eye on Episode 76, "Eye on INVSOC"

 Its been great knowing you in person Natalie, but thanks to this thing called the internet, you may have moved away from lovely Invercargill, but you're still part of our Vegan bubble, connected through Facebook.

Every guest at an INVSOC potluck is special, but one particular special guest this time was Robert Guyton, of Environment Southland among many other interests, a very environmentally focused man with a widely recognized talent and passion for organic gardening, heirloom seeds and general nice person-ness.  Its nice to invite people who may not be Vegan, but are at least somewhat interested in Veganism, and related fields, such as environmentalism….fields……get it….fields…environmentalism...…….

So for the April potluck, we had myself, Katharine, Dan, Natalie, Steve, Kerri and their son Jess, and Robert.  Five years ago, I don't think any Vegans lived in Invercargill, at our last potluck, we had seven Invercargill Vegan Society members in one room.   Things are only moving up from here, our bubble will only expand, and never ever ever burst…..OR, maybe when it bursts, thats when Veganism is mainstream, each town and city has a bubble encompassing all within it….with each new Vegan, with each mention of Veganism on a radio show or in a newspaper or in a magazine or in a podcast or in a sticker or t shirt or bag or memorial tree planted on World Vegan Day or in a plane flown by everyones favourite Vegan pilot Marty out his cockpit window,  

dodging anti aircraft fire and F-16's trying to down the vegan-ist threat,  that Vegan bubble grows.  Bubbles *do* have to burst eventually, but our bubbles will be so large, made from so very many tones of non tested on animals vegan friendly detergent that their shiny film will splatter over the land, a sticky wet coating of mainstream veganism.  Veganism is spreading everywhere - even here in Invercargill, where as far as I know, five years ago there were no Vegans at all living here, and now, if I count myself as the first Vegan I know of in Invercargill, the Vegan who's been living here the longest, in just a couple of years, we've grown to well over 10, 20 Vegans over time, as people have come and gone.   

Right now there are currently….hmm, lets count, Jordan, Dan, Katharine, Russell, Noelle, Steve, Kerri and their son Jess, another Steve and Amber, thats ten Vegans living here right now, that I know of, that I've met in person and given a little Invercargill Vegan Society badge to.  Ten Vegans from all the 50,000 people who live here may not sound impressive, but we're growing!  When I first started attending the Vegetarian cooking class here, I was the only Vegan.  I used to get little jokes about it, "ok everyone, just a show of hands here, any other Vegans here apart from Jordan?  Noone?  Just Jordan?  Jordans the only Vegan?  Ok", very embarrassing.  

And at the class, the demonstrators would come up to me, and laugh in my face, not really meaning to make me burst into tears or anything, as good naturally as you CAN get right up in someones face and say "oh, I'm sorry Jordan, but we're using Cheese, you wont be able to have any of this!", and laughing.  One older guy attending said "…Invercargill Vegan Society?  I bet you all fit in a phone booth!".  I was taken back by the fact other people laughed at that, and said "whats a phonebooth?", pulling out my smartphone.  Still, it stung, it sucks being "The only Vegan in the Village", or even The Only Vegan At The Vegetarian Cooking Class.  A real "Firstworldproblem", eh?  Something you'd see on Twitter, some spoilt brat, ahem, tweeting "its sooooooooo hard being the only Vegan at my Vegetarian cooking class" #firstworldproblems " :-)

Actually, even worse than that, when I attended SAFE meetings, SAFE being New Zealands largest Animal group which goes after banning "factory farming" cages etc, I was the first Vegan any of them had ever met in person, they'd sort of seen the word Vegan in a rare pamphlet once or twice  before, but never actually met a Vegan, or been Vegan themselves.  When I first went to the SAFE organizers house for a meeting, they sort of jokingly asked if I were Vegetarian or, ha, Vegan, not expecting me to say yes to either option, but to give a "ummmm well I'm THINKING about being Vegetarian, and I only buy the happy meat, and The Good Eggs, so….", and they they'd brush it away, "ha, na mate, its all good, its all good".

When I said I was Vegan, their eyes actually widened and their mouths dropped open, like I was some kind of weird priest among the parishioners, that they all sort of believed in the religion, but here I was as some kind of guy who abstained, who went without sex, totally fanatical in my beliefs about not harming or killing other animals, I mean, I went without eating cheese!  :-)   

We've come a long way from the dark days of 2010 or so!  Now we have monthly INVSOC potlucks, where usually 7 or so people attend!  And that number will only grow further, inside the Invercargill Vegan Bubble.

Why THANK YOU Ian, its nice to hear a compliment from you guys,  and that superb podcast of yours, The Vegan Option :-)

Our April potluck guest Robert Guyton, Environment Southland worker and heirloom seed saver informed us about different types of apples, as you'll hear here, just a few of the different types of apples he grows at his house in the seaside town of Riverton

Amazing the things you'll learn at a Vegan potluck , yeah?

He also wrote on his popular local blog,  about attending the April INVSOC potluck:

""In the library of a gracious Invercargill home, eyeing-up the huge custard squares and trying to match the wit of the host  - eating with vegans ain't easy! Tasty though, and entertaining. I hadn't been sure I had the right address initially, but other people were arriving, carrying dishes of milk-free this and meat-free that, so I followed them up the driveway, through the open door (not noticing the wolf's-head door-knocker. It wasn't til I was leaving afterwards that I spotted that.)down the hallway with its overhead collection of box-brownies  

(old cameras my father collected while he lived here)

 and into the front room all lined with books. People were there - ordinary people who care about the quality of life that the bee, bear, buffalo and baluga can enjoy, but don't always, thanks to our (human) hungry and thoughtless ways. No rabbit stew graced that table, as it did that night in my house - I'd left all that behind and was trying something new, an ethically sound meal with good-hearted non-hunters. Gatherers though, from supermarkets and fruit and vege shops mainly, but good cooks and composers of desserts - the afore-mentioned squares were epic, no milk was harmed in the making of those though, they were soy good! I brought along a selection of apples from my orchard to share and contributed to Jordan's podcast as best I could. Somehow, the conversation turned to poo - animal poo that is, and my interest in photographing this crap and that dung, and lo and behold, one of my fellow guests had a story of finding a Book of Poo in a second-hand shop! A book of poo - O frabjous day, halloo, hallay! I've booked a reading and can barely wait. 
Before we left, we were shown the knocker on the front door - a Cheshire cat! Who could have seen that coming?
Great night!
Invercargill Vegan Society - you rock!""

Thanks Robert!  He had a number of interesting comments from his many readers, with one being rather angry that he said "an ethically sound meal with good hearted non hunters", the commenter was offended that Robert was presumably making out Veganism to be ethical, and that to be Non Vegan, which Robert himself is, was "unethical", that it was rather upsetting.

Theres certainly a lot of upsetting things out there in the world, where sometimes it can feel overwhelming, but aways remember that you're not alone… the same way I'm currently aware that I *COULD* include a clip of Michael Jacksons song "You Are Not Alone" right now……some things are always with you, be it a desire to include MJ songs, or the knowledge that there are many, many Vegans out there, around the world.

As Diana and I found out, perhaps you'll be the only Vegan in your area, perhaps you wont have a direct "Vegan bubble" to knock politely on, as the door swings open and you're welcomed inside the silvery dome with open arms.  Sometimes we have to make our own bubble, I've found dishwashing liquid worked quite well, although make sure its not tested on other animals!

ARZone have a new initiative, The ARZone Initiative, sounds very sinister, maybe they should set up base on an island in the pacific….oh wait, Carolyn already lives in that big island of Owes Trailer……ARZone Vegan Buddies, a program to get new vegans in touch with old hands, experienced Vegans, long time Vegans, like myself, whose been Vegan a whopping couple years, a real veteran!

I'm a Vegan Buddy, are you?  You can sign up and help out people interested in learning more about Veganism at , where you'll see the Vegan Buddies page.  Also, try out the great ARZone podcast, featuring interviews with well known Vegans too, really DANG good interviews, just search for ARZone on iTunes, or you'll see it on their website.

If you don't have many Vegan friends in your city, or, even if you've never met another Vegan before, a situation I found myself in until fairly recently, then read blogs, and listen to podcasts, as Stevie Wonder puts it, they sure help create a Vegan bubble, one day you'll be driving to the supermarket, and in a flashing glimpse, you'll notice a parked car with a bumper sticker saying VEGAN on the back of it!  And then you wont be the only, lonely Vegan in your village, and together, you'll wear Vegan t shirts and leave vegan pamphlets in public places, write comments on local newspaper websites, write into newspapers and have your letters published, have vegan potlucks, and basically share your vegan bubble with all the world: …."

"partly I cry for those lonely nights…..till end>

Thank you for listening to Coexisting With Nonhuman Animals.

You can find the script for this episode, as well as downloads for every episode of Coexisting With Nonhuman Animals at

If you want to contact me, I'd really love to hear from YOU, please send me an email to

I'm also on Facebook and Twitter, Jordan Wyatt, W Y A T T

Thank you for listening, and  and remember, if your dreams are haunted by the ghost of Roger Yates and he gives you a good idea for naming your local vegan organization, don't give the real Roger a single rupee in royalties, ok?  Oh, and please please please fill out the shows listener survey, to improve Coexisting With Nonhuman Animals, you'll find it at the top right menu of , I'd really appreciate it :-)  Thank you for listening :-)


Show website

Duck shooting advertised at supermarket, photo

Roger Yates "On Human-Nonhuman Relations"

The Vegan Option

Martys Flying Vegan Review

ARZone Vegan Buddies, supporting new Vegans

Invercargill Vegan Society April Potluck, guest Robert Guyton of Environment Southland writes about his experience 

The Simpsons clip "Meat and you, partners in Freedom"

Horse Slaughterhouse "for human consumption" in Gore, near Invercargill

TWiT 349 Moving to Queenstown, New Zealand (a couple hours drive from Invercargill where I live)

Dr Lashes Out at Drunken Shooters (doctor angry about drunken "duck shooters" who badly injure themselves with their guns while out killing Other Animals)

Another even more recent fatality (human killed) by a hunting "accident"

Animal Farm, Boxer taken to slaughterhouse, Clover his partner

shooting ducks to death for tradition is "man christmas", female reaction, non participation.  Women are marketed to go shopping up town, as "duck shooters wives", while their husbands go out killing

Latest "colony cages" reveal

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